Trisha Vinatieri: The Burnout Expert's Framework for Knowing What to Stop, Delegate, and Do Less Of

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Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are in

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the world. I'm here with Tricia. Did I say that

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right? Perfect. You got it. I always get the stranger

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names on the podcast. Trisha really does some such important

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work. We all suffer at some point in our life

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with burnout. Tell us a little bit more about what

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you're doing, what drives you, what's your passion? Yeah. So

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nice to be here. And what drives me is helping

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people who have come to health care, whether it's mental

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health care or medical health care. We know one of

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the biggest things driving folks from health care is burnout.

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In my work in a large health care facility, I

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work as a chief wellbeing officer where I work with

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both leadership and frontline staff to identify the institutional or

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system level drivers. Those can be things like inefficiencies in

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the electronic health record, inequities and job opportunities. That could

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be lack of community looking at those and then addressing

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them. Because that's again, what really drives burnout. And then

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I've started my own company to help leaders across the

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organization that may not have chief wellbeing officers do the

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same work. So that's starting your own company. Tell me

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a bit about that. How was that? There's an excitement

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to it, isn't there? Absolutely. And a lot of fear.

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I think that starting your own company, there's something a

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bit scary stepping into something you've never done before. I

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think what has sustained me in this process and prevented

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me from throwing in the towel is I absolutely love

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what I do. And I feel really passionate about the

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need for us to figure this burnout thing because we

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all use healthcare. We need it. We need good doctors,

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good nurses, good therapists, and they're leaving healthcare in droves.

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One of the biggest things is burnout. People are saying,

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I can't spend my life chronically tired, not having enough

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time to spend with my families and not finding passion

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in my work anymore. And now you're sitting in both

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camps. You're sitting in my camp as well. Business owners,

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business owners, entrepreneurs, they're my people. Right? You sit in

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the space because you see the problem in the world

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and you can go and fix it. Right? And that's

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what gets you out of bed in the morning. When

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you have those conversations with people and their eyes light

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up and you fix their problem, there's nothing more rewarding.

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There's just isn't right. Not for me anyway. And we

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go into this because we want to fix the problem.

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We want freedom, right? We want the Freedom to be

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in control of our own lives. And as we go

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through that process, there's a 60% burnout rate in small

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business owners worldwide, right. As of last year. And as

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we go through that process, we build ourselves into a

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prison. We become the prisoner of our own success. The

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more successful you are. And that just brings its own

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burnout and its own challenges. And I'm interested to understand

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from you, because healthcare is probably a higher level of

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burnout, but what are the tips and tricks and tools

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that you tell people to look towards to help them

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with this? Yeah. And I think anytime there's an industry

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where a lot of your work surrounds working with people,

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that's where we see high burnout. It's the human labor

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of the work that we do, that human connection. And

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that's not to say that there aren't pieces of like

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business side of running a business, but I think that

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can be a part of it. One of the things

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that I teach leaders is knowing what your professional values

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are and letting those be your North Star. What are

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the things that are most important to you? There are

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going to be times where you have to make decisions

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and if you don't really know what your professional values

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are, you can fall into the trap of making decisions

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where you're. I feel like I'm selling myself, my soul

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to the devil now just to keep this going versus

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why did I enter this field in the first place?

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And having a willingness to have that vulnerability of looking

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inward and saying what's really sustaining me at

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this point and what's draining me out, what can I

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get rid of, what can I keep? That's a big

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part of the work that I do. Self reflection of

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where people are at and thinking about what is it

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that's driving me to that place of burnout and what,

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what are solutions that exist? Is it about delegation? Is

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it about scaling back? Is it about pivoting? Because this

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isn't serving me anymore. Those hard questions versus digging your

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heels and saying, I'm going to stick with it if

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it isn't necessarily giving you that passion anymore. And that's

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not easy when you create your own business. It's your

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baby. You want to keep it alive. And for sure

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it is your baby. I spoke to someone this morning

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and that resonates quite well because one of the things

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that we see is we start a business with core

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values. And people don't really talk about the core values

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in the right way. I don't believe they're just letters,

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words on the wall and if you have your core

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values and the business has its core values. This chap

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I spoke to this morning had been bought out by

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a venture capitalist and the core values were different. And

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yeah, now he's got high blood pressure, now he's got

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challenges. Now he's got. And this really can be such

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a challenge. Oh, no, I

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lost you there for a second. I see you now.

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We're back. The Internet's been unstable. Give

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it a second. You're back. Yeah, I can see you

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just fine. Give me a second. I chop this out.

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We're back. We're all good. All right, so let's go.

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As I say, the process of understanding

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what's valuable to you, because if you can't align with

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that, the journey into stress, the journey into depression.

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For me, I found in my journey I went down

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this hole and I didn't realize I was going down

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a hole until I was in it. How do you

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give people the opportunity to self reflect but to keep

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themselves safe? I think it's that insight and asking yourself

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the questions about what's meaningful to you. What are the

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things in your life that you value the most and

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are there things getting in the way of that? For

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some people, their career is so important to their identity.

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But there are other aspects of our identity that are

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really important. Whether we're a parent or a sibling or

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a daughter or a son, or maybe we're part of

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a community. Many people find when they get into that

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place of burnout, they're sacrificing those other identities that they

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hold in service of their work, which for many people,

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they may have gone into it because they were really

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passionate about it. And that passion is now being drained

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because it's taking all of their energy and taking them

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away from what it is that is important to them

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in life. Like they don't have that balance. I think

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it's all about balance. There's this tool online, it's called

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the Wheel of Life. And it asks you to identify

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what are the aspects of your life that are really

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important. Is it spirituality? Is it community? Is it family?

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Is it physical health? And you rate how important each

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of those are and then you rate to what extent

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your giving the amount of time you would like to.

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And the idea is it graphs it for you. And

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many times it's this really spiky circle to start with,

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but then it's really spiky depending on how much energy

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you're giving to various parts of your life. And the

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idea is you can't drive a Car with a spiky

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wheel. It has to be rounded. And so I encourage

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people to do that exercise again. It's called the wheel

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of life. It's free. I think it's a nice reflection

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around how am I spending my time, people? Because as

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a psychologist, I've worked with many people that are near

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the end of their life and they're asking themselves, what

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am I leaving behind? What is important to me? What

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are my regrets? Oftentimes I focused on the things that

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were not important to me. And so a big piece

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of it is knowing what those things are and being

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really honest about what your values are, not just goals.

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Sometimes people identify goals instead of values. I want to

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make a good income so I can provide for my

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family. What your value is, you want to be a

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good provider and can you do that in a way

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that doesn't sacrifice your well being and spending time with

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your family. That's such a common challenge in the business

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owner space because we create the business, we're trying to

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provide for our family and we then end up spending

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14 hours a day, seven days a week providing. And

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we lose touch with why it's important. They want us,

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they want our presence, they want us, our ability to

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spend time with them. And, and that isn't as valuable

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as the million pounds it's in the bank. So you

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mentioned something. Community. We're in a strange world at the

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moment, right? We went to Covid, everyone got disconnected, managed

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to almost connect with themselves a bit more. Now we

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have AI, we have all of these different things and

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community has got less and less important. And I'm seeing

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a change in that now. I'm seeing people saying, listen,

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we want community again. I saw some studies where people

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that live in a community that's connected live longer. So

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what are your thoughts around that? Yeah, that research is

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spot on. And I think Covid was a great example

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of the importance of having community because people learn to

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connect in different ways. And I think there is a

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lot of introspection that happened during COVID where people are

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like, it's me, this is my community right now because

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of COVID life is too short. Why am I wasting

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my time in this job I'm in that's completely burning

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me out. I'm not happy, I'm cranky all the time.

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That's a sidebar. But yeah, community and social connection is

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so important because it gives us a sense of being

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part of something bigger. But when we connect with others,

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we just feel better. When we connect with a community

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that's healthy for us just being part of something larger.

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It has a lot of evolutionary basis. We survive if

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we're part of a community, but it boosts that connection

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that we need as humans. Like we are social animals

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and we need that connection. One of the things I

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really stress with the organizations I work with is that

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you have to create opportunity for community. Potlucks and other

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types of activities teams can engage in is really important.

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But also opportunities to have moments in a team meeting

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where people are connecting with each other as humans. Not

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just you do this role and I do this role.

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And now we're talking about how we come together to

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get the job done, but giving people the opportunity to

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remember that they're working with humans that have dreams and

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hopes and failures and successes. And so that can look

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like many different things. There's research that shows just having

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one person in the workplace that you consider a

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good friend or a confidant is the difference between going

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to work and being engaged and not. And so thinking

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about the entrepreneurial space in small business, thinking about how

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do you do that? Do you connect with other small

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businesses, business owners, where you have a place to say,

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this is what I'm dealing with. Like, how about you?

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How are you coping with this? And in connecting with

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people that are having similar lived experiences so that you

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feel this sense of, okay, this is normal. I'm feeling

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this way that there are times when I'm like, is

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this worth it? But also so that you have space

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to problem solve and hear from other people how they're

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managing it. Yeah. Things that I've learned about entrepreneurship

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over the years, you go into it for freedom, you

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end up in a prison. It's so much more lonely

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than you think it is because you just can't connect

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with people. People don't have the same passion. Your staff

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are not on the same level as you are. You're

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always going to have this divide. So getting yourself a

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community of people that are like minded is so important.

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So as you go through, you mentioned something there before

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you stepped out into your own business. Run us through

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some of what that looked like. You already in this

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space of working as a psychologist, understanding the stuff, but

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it's so easy when we know the things to still

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get caught in them. Oh yeah, for sure. Like, do

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as I say, not as I do. Absolutely. When I

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was a manager and in a leadership role for nine

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years managing people during COVID I was in that space

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of self reflection where I was like, wow, life is

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really fragile. Nobody is guaranteed tomorrow. What am I

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doing? I'm miserable. I'm starting to get frustrated with the

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people I work with where they'll ask for something super

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reasonable, super simple, and I'll be like, why are they

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reaching out to me? I was just in a dark

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place in my burnout, which led me to the current

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position I'm in as a Chief wellbeing officer. Because of

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that, I think I'm a little more attuned to being

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aware of my burnout in this role. I've never experienced

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burnout yet. It's been three years. I haven't experienced burnout

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because I think I'm doing things that are aligned with

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my passion. And I've gotten good at strategic nos when

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people ask things of me, potentially be something I enjoy

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but are just not within my bandwidth. I've gotten really

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good at saying, I wish I could, but I can't.

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But let me connect you to someone who could. And

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also just assessing what my energy is and really being

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aware of how I'm. So I created my consult, my

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consultation business not because I was burnt out from my

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chief wellbeing role, but really because I saw the gap

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in health care and other organizations. Like much of what

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I teach, healthcare leaders can apply to businesses how we

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think about the work we do. And again, going back

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to that humanity piece, if we remember that we're working

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with people and we treat them in that way, engagement

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goes up, productivity goes up, retention goes up. Because people

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are like, oh, I feel valued by my organization. My

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own burnout led me to shifting gears from being a

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manager. Being a manager is really hard. Being a manager

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during current times is extremely stressful. So that's

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part of why I like working with leaders, too, is

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to acknowledge that, but also help them find a way

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forward to manage the stress and hopefully get to a

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place where they're not feeling such a high level of

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burnout. One of the things that keeps cropping up for

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me, especially in the last three or four months, is

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business owners telling me that they feel guilty they're not

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doing enough. Yeah. Then I dig into it and I

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find out what they're doing, and they're doing way more

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than they should be. This is about delegating the right

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way. Now, I used to do this. I would sit

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in a room and listen to 15 people at once,

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and then I would jump in to try and help

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them. And it's always done from that place of I

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want to help, I just want to be supportive. And

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all I was doing was killing their own productivity because

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I'm Sitting there, I'm like, okay, you know, Mary, you

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could do it this way, and that would be really

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cool. So now I'm knocking her confidence down because she's,

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oh, sh. I had this. Yeah. Having that understanding and

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saying, okay, no, let the people do what they need

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to do. Understand that they're probably not going to do

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it at the same level I am. And 70% is

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perfect because they haven't got my drive, they haven't got

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my experience, they haven't done the things that I've done,

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and I shouldn't expect them to perform at the same

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level. And then I shouldn't belittle them. And that literally

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changed the entire way I was doing things. And what

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a gift you gave to those people, too, by not

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only empowering them, but it was you extending trust. I

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trust that you can do this job. They may not

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do it at the same level as you. One of

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my favorite mentors told me once, you will always be

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disappointed if you take your own standards for yourself and

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apply them to others. You will always be disappointed. So

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if you want a life of disappointment, stick with that.

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But also maybe give people the opportunity to do it

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in their own way. Like, you can't control everything. That

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was a big lesson for me. And when I finally

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let go, even in my own home, when my husband

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does laundry, I'm like, oh, not how I would have

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done it, but. But it's done. I've got to genuinely

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let that go. I see a lot of people want

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to have that control because it has be done a

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certain way, or they want to step in and help

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their staff, and they want to do it for them.

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You're actually preventing them from growing, and you're also inadvertently

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sending the message that you don't trust them to do

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it. And that can really impact how they show up

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in the workplace. Yeah. Yeah. I literally went from working

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14 hours a day, seven days a week in the

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same organizations, three IT companies, to working five hours per

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week. Yeah. By letting the people that were able to

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do the things that they were able to do. Yeah.

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Yeah. And there's so much power. It's so empowering that

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to sit back and now I can actually go. We

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start a business. You said, yeah, it's your baby. And

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that's such. Yeah. That just speaks to me because it

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is right. You birth this creation. Yeah. And you go

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through the terrible twos. You're up all night doing things,

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and then you go through this, the next stage. I

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remember when my daughter was younger, it's okay, so now

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we've got the terrible twos. Then we've got. It's not

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really very good for me at the moment spending some

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time with her, but there's no interaction. Yeah, yeah. And

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then you go, now we get to the teenagers and

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suddenly you are the devil. There's nothing you can do.

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But what you're doing with your company is you're building

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your company in such a way that your company can

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go out into the world and serve its mission, which

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means you mustn't be holding its hand. Right? Yeah. I

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try to sell my IT group probably in 2018, and

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the requirement was that I stayed there for three years

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and that was a real eye opener for me. Why

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do they need me to stay there? Yeah. And then

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I looked at myself, I was like, okay, this is

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not running by itself. It needs to run by itself.

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Yeah. This is what we're doing. We want. I don't

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know whether you're a visionary or whether you're an integrator,

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what your skill set is, but most of us go

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in and we love the building process. We love the

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setting it up without putting it together and then somebody

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else should run it because I'm just not that good

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at that, you know, I'm good at the ideas and

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the creative and getting it going. So. Yeah. How long

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has your company been going? Oh, less than a year.

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It's in its infancy. Yep. A lot of sleepless nights

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and things like that. And I really liked what you

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were saying about how people think that they're not doing

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enough. And I definitely experienced that. I think that I'm

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only on LinkedIn, I'm not on other social medias, but

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I see all these things people are doing and I'm

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like, I'm not doing enough. I need to be. And

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that's where I come back to my values. I'm like,

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okay, my value is to get into

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the hands of leaders in healthcare the skills to help

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:: 18:59

them drive burnout. Now, maybe if I do more posts

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:: 19:03

or do more X, Y and Z, that'll allow me

358

:: 19:06

to do that. But my end goal isn't to build

359

:: 19:08

my audience, have fame and fortune. My goal is really

360

:: 19:11

to help healthcare systems address burnout in clinicians. So that

361

:: 19:15

has been helpful. It's been humbling, but I think that's

362

:: 19:18

been helpful too, to remember I'm not going to be

363

:: 19:20

able to do it all. I'm going to burn out

364

:: 19:23

doing it all. Now we're in that cycle. I'm trying

365

:: 19:25

to help other people get out of that's not great

366

:: 19:29

optics. That's such a good reframe because. Yeah. One of

367

:: 19:34

the big things, probably the fifth or sixth thing that

368

:: 19:36

I've had feedback on is that we look at other

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:: 19:39

people and compare ourselves and there's this compare. Why can

370

:: 19:43

he make. He's 25 years old and he's making £5

371

:: 19:46

million already and he's only been going for a month.

372

:: 19:48

What am I doing? Why am I not so good?

373

:: 19:51

Yeah. And we all come into this with our different

374

:: 19:53

experiences and our speed and the cadence and what we

375

:: 19:56

want to do. Trying to do too much just means

376

:: 19:58

you're back to 14 hour days. Exactly. It's that prison.

377

:: 20:01

You built a business for freedom and now you're back

378

:: 20:03

in that prison. Yeah. So this transitions to one of

379

:: 20:07

my own favorite subjects, which is AI. Yeah. What's your

380

:: 20:11

view in it? You're in healthcare so it's more difficult.

381

:: 20:14

Where do you sit with. I see AI as a

382

:: 20:18

useful tool when used judiciously. There are many spaces

383

:: 20:23

where I think AI can actually help advance the mission

384

:: 20:28

of healthcare. That's a space I feel most comfortable talking

385

:: 20:32

about it. But using AI to transcribe sessions

386

:: 20:37

with your doctor so that your doctor can be sitting

387

:: 20:40

in front of you making eye contact, than sitting behind

388

:: 20:44

a keyboard trying to capture everything you're saying. So I

389

:: 20:47

think that is a very good business case for AI.

390

:: 20:51

I think the piece that needs to be there. Are

391

:: 20:52

we reviewing the notes to make sure they're accurate? And

392

:: 20:55

are we still injecting our training, our clinical judgment, our

393

:: 21:00

expertise when we're using AI versus we're going to let

394

:: 21:04

AI do the job. Like we're using it as a

395

:: 21:07

tool to expedite processes and increase efficiency of the day

396

:: 21:11

to day that we do. Do I think that it

397

:: 21:15

makes sense in all spaces? No. It's a tool that

398

:: 21:18

when implemented judiciously with guardrails, it can be helpful. I

399

:: 21:23

use it when I'm creating social media. These are the

400

:: 21:27

topics I want to talk about, the resources I want

401

:: 21:29

you to use. Give me 20 topics I could talk

402

:: 21:32

about in reels on LinkedIn. It does it more quickly

403

:: 21:35

than I'm taking my expertise and building out the content.

404

:: 21:38

That's where I can see AI. And that function of

405

:: 21:42

AI is a 60% tool. And the key component is

406

:: 21:47

you need to bookend it with human. Right? Absolutely. I

407

:: 21:50

feel that AI is moving so fast. We need to

408

:: 21:53

learn how to use it. Right? Yes. Yes. Because what

409

:: 21:57

I learned last week is different from what I learned

410

:: 22:00

next week and it's the process of learning. And I,

411

:: 22:03

I have this methodology that I work with which is

412

:: 22:06

AI helps you think outside your brain. I like that.

413

:: 22:10

Yeah. And how that comes about. I'm busy writing a

414

:: 22:13

book and I have never been able to hand write

415

:: 22:18

or type at untouched type. I talk to text. Great.

416

:: 22:21

It's a godsend for me that actually understands my dulcet

417

:: 22:25

tones, understands my accent, gets it. That was a game

418

:: 22:28

changer for me. Talked in 30 of my stories of

419

:: 22:32

my journey and they put that all together for me.

420

:: 22:34

Okay, so now let's create that into a writing voice.

421

:: 22:38

So it's me, but it's a writing voice. Right. I

422

:: 22:41

did that and I read it and it was okay.

423

:: 22:43

Then I started doing some work with a guy called

424

:: 22:46

Dennis Ross. Dennis Ross is a ghostwriter. What a man.

425

:: 22:51

Right? The way the turn of phrase, the way he

426

:: 22:54

talks, the way he brings things across, I need to

427

:: 22:57

do that. I need to go learn that skill. But

428

:: 23:00

we don't need to learn the skills anymore. I took

429

:: 23:02

his methodology, I put it into my Claude and said,

430

:: 23:05

create me a skill with this. And it created me

431

:: 23:08

a skill. So now I can take my workings and

432

:: 23:10

I can apply the AI skill of Dennis Ross to

433

:: 23:13

it. And it's still using my voice, but applying these

434

:: 23:17

other methods, these other ways of doing it. And it

435

:: 23:20

resonated quite well. And this is what we can do

436

:: 23:22

across the board. You don't need to be an accountant,

437

:: 23:25

you don't need to be a lawyer. All these things

438

:: 23:26

you can think outside your brain. So the human experience

439

:: 23:30

is elevating. A year ago I would have done six

440

:: 23:33

years worth of work in six months. Now I'm doing

441

:: 23:35

six years worth of work in three days. I finished

442

:: 23:38

this podcast, I jump it into automations at the end

443

:: 23:41

of 17 or 18 minutes, the whole thing is automated

444

:: 23:44

out to posting, out to shorts. It's done so much

445

:: 23:48

more efficiently than I would have done it. That would

446

:: 23:50

have taken me two and a half, three days to

447

:: 23:52

do in the past. That gives me more chance to

448

:: 23:55

be human. Exactly. The step by steps that I don't

449

:: 23:59

need to do, I don't do them. But how do

450

:: 24:01

we become more human? How do we have more conversations

451

:: 24:04

with people? And I think that's the opportunity that people

452

:: 24:06

are not seeing with AI. It's. How do I think

453

:: 24:09

about this in a different way? Absolutely. And when I

454

:: 24:13

talk with people around their burnout again in healthcare,

455

:: 24:19

many of them say what burns me out as I'm

456

:: 24:22

doing things that I didn't train to do, like Documentation

457

:: 24:27

and entering consults and working with insurance companies. Like, I

458

:: 24:31

know how to do those things. But what I trained

459

:: 24:33

to do was how to treat people, to sit with

460

:: 24:36

patients, to have empathy, to listen to their story and

461

:: 24:40

help them get better. I'm doing less and less of

462

:: 24:43

that in health care. A huge piece of burnout is

463

:: 24:46

I signed up to work with people and I'm doing

464

:: 24:48

less and less of that AI giving us more time

465

:: 24:50

to do that. AI is doing those tasks that take

466

:: 24:54

us away from the work, that gives us passion and

467

:: 24:57

allows us to connect with other human beings. It's allowing

468

:: 25:00

us to build that community with each other. More than

469

:: 25:02

five years ago. I agree. It's advancing so quickly. I

470

:: 25:06

use Claude too. And looking at what I've plugged into

471

:: 25:09

it maybe six months ago and seeing how it's learned,

472

:: 25:11

this is amazing. It's a little scary. It's amazing. And

473

:: 25:16

think, okay, where's it going to be in three months

474

:: 25:18

time? And so we go into this new space and

475

:: 25:20

go into this new world and if we can honor

476

:: 25:22

the fact that we're humans and we don't need to

477

:: 25:24

do as much, I think there's a much better future

478

:: 25:27

that's out there. I agree. So we're going to wrap

479

:: 25:32

up in a little bit. What are your final thoughts?

480

:: 25:34

What's. Yeah, if you're a stressed out healthcare person, stressed

481

:: 25:38

out business owner, what is one thing that you could

482

:: 25:40

do for yourself that would really help? I'm going to

483

:: 25:45

think of two, if that's okay. You can have two.

484

:: 25:47

Okay. The first is think of what your values are.

485

:: 25:50

There are a lot of tools online that can help

486

:: 25:53

you identify your values. Like not your goals, not your

487

:: 25:57

priorities, not your demands. What are your values? And think,

488

:: 26:00

am I living consistently with them? Because we know when

489

:: 26:03

we're not living consistently with our values, depression, anxiety, negative

490

:: 26:08

affect, all of those things go up. The second is

491

:: 26:12

I think there's a very easy framework people can use

492

:: 26:17

to evaluate their day and asking themselves, what is one

493

:: 26:22

thing that I'm going to stop doing? Because it's not

494

:: 26:25

bringing anything to my life. I now have to be

495

:: 26:28

on site for my job on the days that I

496

:: 26:31

work. Not my business, but my other job. I was

497

:: 26:34

really struggling to clean my house once a week. And

498

:: 26:36

I got to the point where I was like, one

499

:: 26:37

thing I'm going to get rid of, I'm going to

500

:: 26:39

clean every other week, I'm going to get rid of

501

:: 26:40

that once a week cleaning. Like, the house is not

502

:: 26:42

going to fall apart if I Clean it every other

503

:: 26:44

week. The second is, what can I delegate? What are

504

:: 26:48

the things that I'm holding onto that I feel like

505

:: 26:51

I have to do? Because I'm going to do it

506

:: 26:53

the best way and no one else can do it

507

:: 26:54

the way I want it to be done. How can

508

:: 26:56

I let go of that and delegate? And the third

509

:: 26:59

is what can I do less of? But my friend

510

:: 27:03

gave me a really good example of a stop doing.

511

:: 27:05

She has her daughter pick out her outfits now in

512

:: 27:08

the morning. Her daughter's 13 and she has very good

513

:: 27:12

fashion sense. And so she's, I'm gonna stop picking out

514

:: 27:15

my outfits. I'm going to have my daughter pick out

515

:: 27:17

my outfits for me. So I think there can be

516

:: 27:19

other things where you're like, I'm either going to delegate

517

:: 27:21

this or I'm going to stop doing it. It's just

518

:: 27:23

going to work out. I'm going to figure it out

519

:: 27:25

what it is. So I would encourage people to do

520

:: 27:27

that once a week. And I think we as humans

521

:: 27:29

will find that we're probably doing a lot of things

522

:: 27:32

that either we've just been in the habit of doing

523

:: 27:34

or we think there's an expectation we do it. And

524

:: 27:36

this applies to work, too. When we're at work, what

525

:: 27:39

are one thing I can do less of, one thing

526

:: 27:41

I can stop doing, and one thing I can delegate.

527

:: 27:44

Thank you very much for joining us and I wish

528

:: 27:46

you the very best with your business going forward. I'm

529

:: 27:48

sure you're going to be very successful and maybe you

530

:: 27:51

can come back on in six months time and tell

531

:: 27:53

us how you've made your millions or helped your millions

532

:: 27:55

of people. I would love that. Thank you so much

533

:: 27:58

for talking with me today. Have a great day. You

534

:: 28:03

too.